Exploring North - This Sunday

North Attenders -

Don't forget that this Sunday is week #1 of Exploring North!  After Sunday's sermon on membership - we've had close to 70 people sign up! We have room for more.  So - if you are interested in attending - let Alison Delgatti know (adelgatti@gmail.com).

The class is two weeks in a row - from 1:00 PM until 3:00 or 3:15.  I hope to see you there!!

Comments

[Mark]

70 people, that is a lot. The nice thing with the Exploring North class is that it is normally small enough to be able to ask questions, and get to know the people a little more. Seems like there is enough people to make 6-7 classes.

[David Whiting]

Mark - Yes, 70 people is a lot. And there will be disadvantages to having that many (the two you mentioned). But it is a matter of stewardship of my time. We feel strongly about me leading the Exploring North classes. So then how often do I take four to six hours to teach a class? How many hours should I be working a week with three children at home? Those are questions I fight through all the time. Ultimately, how I use my time defines if my trust in in God or not. If I'm working more hours than I should - it is the revelation that I think this depends on me.

So - long answer to your comment... We believe that I need to be the primary teacher of the Exploring North classes. People want to hear it from me - not someone else. And I am willing to do four of the classes a year for now (eight Sundays). This will be the first class in years that is more than 20 people. I figure we need to make wise decisions and turn the rest over to God. He can handle it.

[Mark]

The reason for my comment was during small group we were discussing membership, and one person was interested in going but when they found out the number of people they lost interest. Before the class has been small enough to be more open but with that many people it is discouraging for some that have questions, where the class was a good venue to ask them.

[David Whiting]

That's no problem. There will be plenty of smaller classes coming up. I look forward to having them in one of those classes.

[Mark]

I always thought that the Exploring North Class had 3 goals:

1. Tell people about North: what is believed, taught, and the vision.

2. For people to ask open and honest questions: Help them understand where church stands on some issues, how things are interpreted, to help people know where they maybe be in agreement or disagreement.

3. To get to know people: To get to know the pastors (Dave, Scott, and yourself), and others that may be there.

So they can better decide that they can trust the leadership in light of Heb 13:17.
As you stated the disadvantage to have such a large class effects 2 & 3, people may not be willing to ask questions, and time for people to get to know others, especially the pastors. What are the advantages to having a large class that out way the disadvantages? I am trying to understand because 2 & 3 are more important to me, and with your matter of time, #1 may be handled better by others in the church, deacons or teachers. How would questions get handled if they cannot be answered in class, how do they get to know you more? Handling that could press even more on your time.

[Jfishjosh]

I am one of those new people that intends on coming to the Exploring North class this week. My wife and I just started attending North back in August (I think). I can understand what you are saying Mark, but I think there are lots of reasons why a big class can still accomplish the things you have listed.

For one thing, David's recent sermon on "Dating The Church" was meant to draw a big crowd into the Church fold. He wanted people to get moving on commitment so North can fully utilize its resources for God's glory. That being said, many of the people coming to this class have been regularly attending North for some time and probably have been involved in other ways as well. So they are more familiar than your recent visitor (like my wife and I, who started attending in just the last couple of months).

On another point, North appears to be a pretty large church as it is. It's very difficult for the Pastors to "get to know" new people, even in small classes, in just a short time. The same goes for us; I don't expect to get to know David or Scott or anyone else in a very short time in these classes. As I get involved with the Church, I hope that my participation and the such will give me opportunities to get to know them and show them what my gifts are.

But I don't need the class to get to know people beyond the Pastor. The community groups are the best way to find yourself drawn into a community with believers. My wife and I started attending a community group within a few weeks of when we started visiting Church and have really created and are cultivating friendships in that atmosphere.

While it would be nice for there to be a small setting, I can understand the constraints, especially concerning the recent sermon about membership. To be honest, when I came to North, I didn't know anyone and the church was SO FAST in welcoming us, getting us involved, and helping us be comfortable. It's pretty incredible.

Sounds like the member of your small group is headed in the right direction. Having a small group is a powerful way of staying connected while they consider membership. Since the membership classes happen so frequently, maybe you should encourage that person to just consider waiting until they come again if they would prefer that atmosphere. There's nothing wrong with waiting in that context. For many others, this large group will work just fine and the pastors will accomplish what they set out to do.

[Mark]

Hey Josh, Are we going to hijack another blog entry. The last one was fun and don’t see why this would be different. You are new to North. Welcome, I don’t think that I have met your before in any personal context as that is difficult on Sunday mornings.

I agree with you that a community group is the best place to be drawn into a community, and I am glad that you have found one for your wife and yourself.

I think for your benefit I should give you some background about myself so that you can better understand where I am coming from, and start to see why I consider membership a serious issue, and shouldn’t be handled lightly or to the “tyranny of the urgent” (which I will explain). I would like to hear a little of your background as well so that we could better understand each other.

My wife and I came to North about three years ago after a very bad church experience which ended with us basically getting kicked out. That experience has left me a little jaded, and cynical, but has also made me want better answers and helped me to understand what the Church is. While at North I have changed a lot, when I first came I could say I agreed with the core beliefs North, and over the past few years I have changed, and North has changed, and can say that I no longer agree with the core beliefs, or some of the changes in direction. If I was quick to become a member I would have to remove myself from membership because of those disagreements. I didn’t want to be quick to join without understanding the church more, and now I am in a place where I couldn’t be a member (more from the membership structure and requirements, than lack of desire). Some ask me why I stay, David has even suggested that I might want to find another church, and my simple answer is because I am invested in the people at North, and because I refuse to be a consumer of church trying to find the “right fit” or even one that I agree with everything (which is impossible). That may be more than you wanted or needed to know about me, and there is more that I could write but this is not the place for that.

Membership is serious because in becoming a member you are aligning yourself with the core beliefs, the direction and the way that those things play out. This is also important because you are to be submitting yourself to the leadership of the church and because when you become a member you waive some of your rights (or privileges). With that you should know and trust the leaders of the church, that can’t be done in a service, or a large class, it requires more intimate contact. A small class is better, not perfect but better.

At North the vision statement is “To magnify God by making and developing increasingly devoted followers of Christ.” With “increasingly” being defined as more (quantity) AND better (quality). So I measure what is done by that standard. So if I ask does a large Exploring North achieve this, in terms of quantity that is clearly true, in terms of quality it is not so clear. You said David meant to draw a big crowd in (that is an assumption and I won’t write to David’s intent), and it is possible that many people coming have been regular attendees (another assumption which I do not know the validity, as your wife, yourself, and my friend are examples that it doesn’t hold true). So for regular attendees they have had some time to learn and understand more about North than more recent attendees, which may give them more questions that they may want answers before going further in the membership process. More recent attendees (like you) may have different questions to determine if they should stay at North or not, if they should invest more of themselves at North or not.

So with David’s time constraints and other people’s time constraints there is limited opportunity to be able to ask these things. It could be just me that thinks people should have questions, should ask them, and deserve the time to be answered. If David is to give an account for the souls of the people under his leadership, this should not something that should be given to the urgent. Large response to a sermon doesn’t necessitate a large class.

North is a large church and is getting larger (hence the new addition), because of that it will be harder for new people and members to be able to have opportunities to get to know the pastors and to show them what their gifts are. It is a consequence of being part of something that is large and growing, and I have not seen anything that overcomes this obstacle, it is a matter of our limitations and the limitation of the pastors.

So to be honest with you, your post has not given me any reasons why a big class can still accomplish the things that I have listed: open opportunity to ask questions, and get to know and understand the pastors. David has also said this is a disadvantage of the larger class.

As for the member in my small group, I have encouraged him to go to the class, and other things. As David said he schedules to do the class 4 times a year, so every 3 months, which is a long time to commit to a church, and building relationships when it may not be the good church for everyone (David is fine if it isn’t the right place for everyone). I think that these are serious things for people to consider, and should be handled with the weight they carry.

[Jfishjosh]

When I said "to draw a crowd", I was referring to David's implication that there are a significant number of people who are "dating the Church" (otherwise, why would he have to address it in a sermon?).

I am a recent graduate of RIT and only very recently married. I am young in both my age and my faith, to some degree, but I have seen God use me and develop in wonderful ways.

While at RIT, I was an evangelism coordinator for two years and eventually became the Student Ministry Leader of one of the groups on campus. While not actually leading a church, I saw some of the difficulty that comes with leading a ministry. The mix of full-devoted attendees was exciting, but it was often outweighed by the unwillingness to commit by even a small handful. Our specific ministry had roughly 15 fully committed members, but we saw nearly 25 to 30 regular attendees. It was very difficult to lead ministry on campus because of this.

Here's just one example. Every week on campus we hold something called "Lunch Bunch". This weekly event was simply free lunch and discussion. The leaders chose some article about faith from some news source (NYTimes, CNN, etc) and opened the tables for discussion. The topics included things like the role of prayer in medical decisions, forgiveness for major crimes, marriage as an institution, etc. The event was incredibly low-key and allowed for real discussion. We mentioned our other events, but we tried not to pressure anyone to get involved.

But a problem quickly presented itself. The 10-15 very committed people tried their best to invite friends and to make it a welcoming atmosphere. The others who were regular attendees, but who could not be counted on to serve, showed up for food, discussion and then left. They didn't invite anyone and they didn't help with the cooking, leading, etc. But we would see them again at worship activities, weekend movie nights, etc.

These "daters" drained our resources without committing in anyway. While I think it is important to make sure you are aligned with the church before you make a commitment to serve, there are those who have been "committed" to being a part of the church without actually serving as God has called.

While I am making the assumption that there are quite a number of these "daters" at North, I think it is a safe assumption. David seemed very passionate about drawing those non-committed into the fold. For these people who may already know a fair bit about the church, a large class may be the most effective way to get them into the church and beginning using them to further the kingdom here in Rochester.

For those who want a more personal experience, I don't think the pastors would ever deny them an opportunity to chat. I haven't met w/ the pastors myself, but everyone I have talked to who has been involved in the church tells of times they met with Scott or David. If that class doesn't do it for them, the doors seem wide open for conversation.

Some of the sessions about North are smaller (as David has said), and this one will be large. It sounds like its a one-time thing that just needs to happen to bring the large group of uncommitted, but regular attending, church-goers in.

I, for one, prefer the large size of the group. I don't fear the possibility to miss out on asking my questions. If I have a burning question and it isn't answered, I will find a way to ask it.

You are making the assumption that everyone is as proactive about asking questions as you may be. Some church-goers, or even those who have never had a home church or who may be extremely young to the faith, may have no understanding of what to expect. They don't want to be confronted, because they aren't sure. But God wants them, and He wants to use them. Those people would welcome a large class and the opportunity to listen.

Let's just enjoy the fact that North is growing and look forward to seeing other opportunities for intimate conversation for new church attendees! (I recently received a letter from David and the church inviting my wife and I to come to learn about "Open The Door". I was taken aback by the hospitality of David and the church to really tell us about the vision. This sounds just like one of those opportunities you are talking about Mark.)

Sorry for eating up the blog David! (And sorry for any spelling errors, I didn't have the heart to proofread this)

[David Whiting]

Mark -

I would say that the goals of Exploring North would be the following – in this order:
1) For people to understand the theology and vision of North.
2) For people to get to know my heart as I talk about things that are very important to me.
3) To give the Gospel to those who show up who are not followers of Jesus.
4) To challenge people to be baptized who haven't been baptized.
5) For the pastors to get to know the new people who are attending North.

I would NOT say that a primary goal is what you listed earlier as #2 (For people to ask open and honest questions). It isn't the best forum for that. And (as we all have had experience with) we've had people willing to dominate time with questions that matter to no one else but them. We welcome sincere questions that can be briefly answered in that context, and we say the same thing at the end of each class session, "We will stay around and answer questions as long as you have them." Some people take us up on that.

You asked about the advantages of a large class... simply that 70 people signed up after Sunday. We don't want to delay them a year or more to guarantee small classes. We want to respond as quickly as possible. Plus the first four goals aren't impacted at all by a large class. Only the fifth goal.

And I would disagree that the first goal of helping people understand the theology and vision of North would be better handled by others in the church. I think I'm probably the best spokesperson at North for our vision and theology – plus I love to talk about them and we've found that newer people want to hear these things from me.

So – again – as I said before… a large class isn't ideal, but we are thrilled that 70 people plan to come and we will continue to figure out how to be as accessible as possible in a church that God allowing to grow. What a great adventure He is sending us on!!

[Mark]

David,
Thank you for your post.

My previous post was inappropriately personal, and antagonistic. I will refrain from making those types of posts. I am sorry that was out of line.

Josh, thank you for your previous post. It helped me understand where your coming from a lot better. You didn't need to post that, but I appreciate that you did, and took you time to do that.

[David Whiting]

Thanks very much, Mark! I really appreciate it.